Saturday, March 22, 2008

Good discussion on Obama

Unforced Rhythms of Grace said...
Nice words. But the fact remains that the Church he belongs too and the pastor he loves do not identify themselves as american. No..they identfy themselves as Africans. This is from Obama's church: "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization." I don't care what he long as he is honest about it. And he is not. This church is afro-centric and speaks very inflammatory rhetoric against the US and white people. Obaman cannot possibly represent all of americans when his religious and philosophical core is divisive.

March 20, 2008 12:18 PM

Andrew said...
Good point, though I wonder how much of this rhetoric is designed to give the congregation a feeling of place and belonging. African Americans have often not been made to feel that they "belonged." They have been treated as "other" by the powerful in America. It seems natural for them to create a feeling of belonging, that those who have rejected them cannot claim.

Were I to have a defining characteristic, that advertised me as of Scottish heritage, and if being of Scottish heritage denied me a place here in America, I might also try to find my place in my parents country of origin. The interesting thing is that African Americans would be just as rejected in Africa as they have been her in America. They would be seen as Ameircans not Africans. It is a difficult place for them to be. I am willing to cut them some slack.

I also do not believe that Barak Obama has any designs on being other than American. He is clearly trying to put forth an agenda that is more healing and lacking in divisiveness, than any other candidate. I believe we need a politician like Obama right now.

March 22, 2008 10:03 AM


Leo said...

I am not quite sure what to make of Jeremiah Wright. I don't know if he grew up being persecuted for his race or not but if he did then I can understand his rage. While I disagree with his statements it is difficult to overcome years of persecution for ones color. Hundreds of years of slavery will leave lots of residual anger even causing one to associate with the home of his ancestors. I don't associate Barack Obama with the inflammatory speech but I'm sure some one in the media will find dirt if it exists - so stay tuned!

Andrew said...

Exactly. The crux of Obama's speach is that we all need to cut each other some slack when we discuss race. Everyone can find a reason to be angry. Everyone can also find a reason to get beyond old wounds and work towards a better America.

dmarks said...

I do wonder at someone who is rich and powerful being so angry at the system let him succeed. And being so angry all the time, period.

As for Rev. Wright's comments, I am sure that he must say many things that are not true. I've already heard of him lying about Pearl Harbor and 9/11. However, calling himself an African might be another lie. He was never born there, probably has never lived there. If he is African, then what does that make a person of Uganda or Botswana? Chopped liver?

Leo said...

I heard his comments, too, on 9/11, Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima and Nagasaki and, yes, he is wrong.

But I can assure you that a number of WW2 era Republican’s believed that FDR was responsible for Pearl Harbor – especially when it was revealed that the US had broken the Japanese code. Thomas Dewey included this accusation in his 1944 campaign against FDR. Richard Nixon
repeated the same more than once…I wonder if Fox will reveal that little tid bit?

Sadly, Wright has only wandered to the edge of mainstream thought - not outside of it.

Andrew said...

I guess I do not see Obama as that angry. I actually see him as rather hopeful. I see most of the anger in the currnet politics of fear. I beleive that when you can make people angry you are often tapping into their fear. If you can motivate them to be fearful then you can manipulate their anger. Right now many Americans are angry at all Arabs, Iranians, Mexicans, and liberals. These are pretty big blocks of people. Most of them just want a better life or a better America. Why the intense anger? Perhaps we should be encouraged to understand their motivations and positions before we assume they are the enemy.

dmarks, I know you are not one of the people I mention above but I see a lot of this in the media.

Unforced Rhythms of Grace said...

Andrew, I don't agree with your premise that many Americans are angry at the groups you listed. Speaking for myself, I am not angry at illegal immigrants per se. I am angry at policies that does not crack down on the influx of these people. Frankly, I believe that the majority of them are just trying to make a better lives for themselves. It angers me when we sit back and try to make it easier for them to get driver licenses, educations, and welfare monies. I think we should do all we can do to keep them out and the people that are here should be sent back whenever possible.

dmarks said...

@andrew: "guess I do not see Obama as that angry. I actually see him as rather hopeful."

Of course. I was speaking of Rev. Wright's spittle-flying rage. Obama seems cool as a cucumber.

@andrew: "Right now many Americans are angry at all Arabs, Iranians, Mexicans, and liberals. These are pretty big blocks of people. Most of them just want a better life or a better America. Why the intense anger?"

I'm seeing planty of partisan anger at liberals, but not much against ethnic groups these days. Not much at all.

dmarks said...

unfortunate: if people getting welfare money is such a problem. why not deport the native citizens also? There are far many more of them on welfare than there are illegal aliens.

Andrew said...

I'm sorry Dmarks, I thought you were saying that Obama was angry.

I also agree the welfare problem is not with immagrants at all. If you count the taxes they pay, with social security numbers that don't belong to them, then they are a net positive revenue wise.

As we all know, immagration is a hard and complex problem. I wonder why we don't hear about members of our government having summit meeting with Mexico about the immagrant "problem."

I have a small home in Mexico. We are off the "gringo trail" and the Mexicans I know are happy and prosperous. They have no desire to come here. In fact they have people from Southern Mexico working oun their farms just like we do. It seems to me that we could work with the Mexican government to find a way to help them develop a way to keep workers employed in Southern Mexico, instead of building a wall at our border for billions. If you look at our continent, we have Mexico, Canada and the U.S. Why can't we figure out a way to work together so we all prosper. I see no energy put into that at all.

Regarding anger. I have been on conservative web sites where people think that all Muslims are dangerous. I live within a half a mile of a big Somali comunity. Their kids play happily with mine at school. We go to school plays together and have BBQs in the summer. No one can tell me that these people are not a wonderful addition to our open society. Granted, the first generation have many customs that I do not get, but they are trying. When I held out my hand in greeting, a few years ago, a woman would not take it, as touch between the sexes was forbidden. Now there is not a problem.

A Somali boy, in college at the University of Minnesota, died last year and my family brought rice and fruit juice. The mother, deep in morning, was so appreciative that an American cared about the loss of her son. These are just people like you and I. I am so happy to have them here to take advantage of what my grandfather found. We are a wonderful nation that can attract the best and the brightest, if we are willing to let them come in some ordrely (I know, that is the problem) fashon. I feel that is our strength. Lets make the most of it while the best and the brightest of the world still want to come here.

Bill Gates was on the radio last week and said that in engeneering, sixty percent of the grad students were foreign born. They all had jobs if they could stay but we were sending them back because they could not get visas. Our high tech industries have positions they cannot fill. So we send highly qualified people back to India, China, and South America to compete against us. They want to stay, but no, we won't let them. They will be our competetors now, because we were too stupid to let them stay in the country. Our undrfunded public school systems can't keep up with our demand. We either need to work on educating our citizens or let more foreigners in.